PvP vs. FvF

[Pup]

Those Dark and Light guys seem really bitter. What did you do to them?

[Niccoli]

Originally Posted by Deyth

So far I've been threatened with a ban on the Vault, had all my posts removed, and had my signature altered even further by a nazi mod there. I also had a DnL mod tell me to change my signature and quoted TOS that didn't forbid it so the fucker actually had the balls to say he's changing the TOS just to make my Vote Libertarian sig illegal. I am honored.

The DnL fanbois flipped on the article here.

Another one on the DF forum.

This is totally off topic of the thread, but man its just sad to see how many "kids" there are on these forums. BTW, my definition of 'kids' are people who don't take the time to actually make a rational judgement, but instead find some personal amusement in just acting like an idiot.

As far as your sig, thats just plain stupid. But you know, if you don't agree with our president, you are an unpatriotic terrorist so it serves you right... *picks up the phone to call homeland security*

[Deyth]

Originally Posted by Pup

Those Dark and Light guys seem really bitter. What did you do to them?

I'm not sure. I actually started with a neutral tone. I think some of them already knew me and were aching to insult.

Originally Posted by Niccoli

This is totally off topic of the thread, but man its just sad to see how many "kids" there are on these forums. BTW, my definition of 'kids' are people who don't take the time to actually make a rational judgement, but instead find some personal amusement in just acting like an idiot.

As far as your sig, thats just plain stupid. But you know, if you don't agree with our president, you are an unpatriotic terrorist so it serves you right... *picks up the phone to call homeland security*

I fought back against the DnL mod; so far it's been referred to the head of Alchemic Dream, the company hired to manage their community. Let them ban me.

Anyone who hangs out here gets spoiled quickly. There's just no other board as unrestricted as this one and I always forget just how bad it is until I go elsewhere.

[Vinadil]

Well, dang... red letters... you really ARE trying to make my eyes bleed... but anywhoo

I guess I can just type this without looking at the screen and hope that my misspells are not too bad.

Over-all I agree with the sentiment here. I played Merlin DAoC with COmbine (same server/side) and I think saw you guys some on the Dred server we moved to.

I have nothing against racial factions, I just have a LOT against the racial PvP restrictions. I still think a game like WoW could have a LOT of potential if they allowed guilds to run all the non-capital cities and allowed free PvP (with faction hits that stop you from going back to the capital city if your faction gets to a certain point).

All in all, I guess I like the system EVE online has developed. It is completely free PvP that has SOME restrictions. But, if you are committed enough to kill someone (IE pay the money and declare war on them), then you can bypass the faction hits and kill them until your pocket-book fails. Not even the newbie-protecting guards will step in to stop you.

The problem with Faction based normally is that there are not ENOUGH enemies to fight. I think that new larger servers will hopefully address such issues, possibly even to the point of allowing a game like DnL to be fun, though I have my doubts.

IT has obviously worked with EVE, as they are growing now even in their third year, and hopefully games such as Darkfall will house enough players on each server to make world-domination a truly meaningul (and hopefully near impossible) feat.

oh yea, and PS - change your forum colors...

[Deyth]

Originally Posted by Vinadil

Well, dang... red letters... you really ARE trying to make my eyes bleed... but anywhoo

I guess I can just type this without looking at the screen and hope that my misspells are not too bad.

Over-all I agree with the sentiment here. I played Merlin DAoC with COmbine (same server/side) and I think saw you guys some on the Dred server we moved to.

I have nothing against racial factions, I just have a LOT against the racial PvP restrictions. I still think a game like WoW could have a LOT of potential if they allowed guilds to run all the non-capital cities and allowed free PvP (with faction hits that stop you from going back to the capital city if your faction gets to a certain point).

All in all, I guess I like the system EVE online has developed. It is completely free PvP that has SOME restrictions. But, if you are committed enough to kill someone (IE pay the money and declare war on them), then you can bypass the faction hits and kill them until your pocket-book fails. Not even the newbie-protecting guards will step in to stop you.

The problem with Faction based normally is that there are not ENOUGH enemies to fight. I think that new larger servers will hopefully address such issues, possibly even to the point of allowing a game like DnL to be fun, though I have my doubts.

IT has obviously worked with EVE, as they are growing now even in their third year, and hopefully games such as Darkfall will house enough players on each server to make world-domination a truly meaningul (and hopefully near impossible) feat.

oh yea, and PS - change your forum colors...

PvP should have penalties, not restrictions. When done right they are effectively the same thing except giving someone the option of biting the bullet for what he thinks is worth it.

There is a dropdown at the bottom left of each page where you can select preset forum styles.

[ShortBus]

Guilds don't leave out of fear, that's a stupid statement.

I didn't say that guilds leave out of fear. I said they left because winning is usually more fun and the easiest way most multi-game guilds can win is to switch from game to game and beat out the bulk of the population to the higher content, whether it be skills, items, levels, etc. So after they do that and declare that they "won" they move onto the next game and repeat the cycle. That is the whole point of multi-game guilds isn't it....

Why do you think

Three months into the server's lifespan and people won't drop their characters on the winning side to switch and support the losers. What ends up happening instead is the winners get bored with no one left to challenge them and they end up leaving

happens. Most guilds say they want a challenge and yet don't go back and try out the "losing" side and try to make it the winning side. My explanation is as I've said, its easier and usually more fun to go out and try a new game that you can easily overcome the opposition on than to try to fight your way up an already losing side.

That's one of the inherent problems in all FvF games as I've seen so far. If you design the game so that the losing side will always lose (by making the penalites too stiff or the rewards too sweet) then that eventually kills the server because almost nobody will stay and fight for that faction after a while. That's usually when the devs shit themselves and make a retarded change to try to rebalance the game and ends up just fucking it up more.

[Vinadil]

Ahh wonderful drop-down... perhaps since I am at work it makes sense to use the "at-work" view.

On topic - you speak of PvP having penalties, but aside from faction-hits (from NPC or PC clans) they become hard to enforce. Unless you do true permadeath (which I mean cancel the game-code and force the person to buy a new box every time they die, or heck get a new ISP because theirs is now locked)... then what penalty is truly meaningful?

The fact is that most penalties in games hurt the 5-10 hr/week player and are near meaningless to the 40+ hr/week player. Now I don't include the obvious of loot-loss and city-destruction which I find to be some of the biggest penalties to killing too many people.

I guess I like games that limit the NPC involvement, games that encourage if not force people out of the "newb" areas in order to really enjoy them. Really I think EVE has done it well, even though they have been slow to bring in player-owned assets. And that is really the heart of the matter.

To enforce a penalty on someone it has to affect them 24/7, not just when they are logged on. If players never left the gameworld then I would have no problem with a FFA world with no factions. It would be up to me to find and kill the idiot who tried to kill me. But, games just don't work that way... I cannot get to him any time, he can run out of the reach of my long-arm of justice. Tying a NPC faction hit in with that just means that my search radius get a bit smaller... so that hopefully during the small time when both he and I are online I WILL be able to find him.

[Deyth]

Originally Posted by ShortBus

I didn't say that guilds leave out of fear. I said they left because winning is usually more fun and the easiest way most multi-game guilds can win is to switch from game to game and beat out the bulk of the population to the higher content, whether it be skills, items, levels, etc. So after they do that and declare that they "won" they move onto the next game and repeat the cycle. That is the whole point of multi-game guilds isn't it....

Why do you think

happens. Most guilds say they want a challenge and yet don't go back and try out the "losing" side and try to make it the winning side. My explanation is as I've said, its easier and usually more fun to go out and try a new game that you can easily overcome the opposition on than to try to fight your way up an already losing side.

That's one of the inherent problems in all FvF games as I've seen so far. If you design the game so that the losing side will always lose (by making the penalites too stiff or the rewards too sweet) then that eventually kills the server because almost nobody will stay and fight for that faction after a while. That's usually when the devs shit themselves and make a retarded change to try to rebalance the game and ends up just fucking it up more.

What you basically said is they leave out of fear of losing; that's not true. Guilds stop playing games when the games stop being fun. That is the game's fault, not ours. Multi-game guilds are ones that have survived intact between multiple games, something one day perhaps your guild might try to do. That is totally irrelevant.

If we could switch to the losing side intact then perhaps we would do that for kicks, but why should we go through all the leveling up again? Getting all the items and shit? If it was fun to do we'd probably do it but it never is. It's downright tedious, especially in a piece of shit like Lineage 2. In fact, while we were on Bartz we stayed mercs so we could play the losing side, something I explicitly told you when we chose the weaker side in a siege against you.

[Deyth]

Originally Posted by Vinadil

Ahh wonderful drop-down... perhaps since I am at work it makes sense to use the "at-work" view.

On topic - you speak of PvP having penalties, but aside from faction-hits (from NPC or PC clans) they become hard to enforce. Unless you do true permadeath (which I mean cancel the game-code and force the person to buy a new box every time they die, or heck get a new ISP because theirs is now locked)... then what penalty is truly meaningful?

The fact is that most penalties in games hurt the 5-10 hr/week player and are near meaningless to the 40+ hr/week player. Now I don't include the obvious of loot-loss and city-destruction which I find to be some of the biggest penalties to killing too many people.

I guess I like games that limit the NPC involvement, games that encourage if not force people out of the "newb" areas in order to really enjoy them. Really I think EVE has done it well, even though they have been slow to bring in player-owned assets. And that is really the heart of the matter.

To enforce a penalty on someone it has to affect them 24/7, not just when they are logged on. If players never left the gameworld then I would have no problem with a FFA world with no factions. It would be up to me to find and kill the idiot who tried to kill me. But, games just don't work that way... I cannot get to him any time, he can run out of the reach of my long-arm of justice. Tying a NPC faction hit in with that just means that my search radius get a bit smaller... so that hopefully during the small time when both he and I are online I WILL be able to find him.

Certainly it's hard to do, that was my main point for why FvF exists. Penalties have to be balanced but to be specific I'd have to know what the game mechanics are. Item loss is a great penalty but if you die easily then the loot should be replaced easily whereas if it's a hard victory then more should be at stake. UO had that. Penalties can involve access to certain things that are directly connected to your available time investment. SB fucked that up with ninja raids on towns.

You shouldn't be guaranteed revenge on a perpetrator. If someone kills you in a fair fight then that's too bad, there's nothing to equalize. You can add him to your kos list or try to get guilds involved. That's part of the conflict we want to exist. Even more so, I would prefer if the other person had to kill you for some sort of advancement reasons. For a high vs low gank, then the low's loss should be minimal while the high's loss should be something costly but not ridiculous.

[Deyth]

The DnL fucker edited my signature for me so I reset it back. I am expecting a ban anytime now.

[Niccoli]

LOL, where was the breach. Nothing about the game in those quotes... Was that particular thread in the private forums? Or is the admin looking for an easy way out to ban you?

[ edited ] Last edited by Alzar : Today at 08:01 PM. Reason: NDA Breach


EDIT: LOL, so it was from the private beta forums. Such an NDA breach. The mods over there are so with it...

[Deyth]

Originally Posted by Tbone70

thats your opinion and your trying to shove it down others throats.

I agree with that other guy who said this guy is full of it

Originally Posted by Deyth

How exactly does one go about shoving an opinion down a throat? Here is some advice...stop swallowing, spit.

Originally Posted by Tbone70

here is some advice to you....drop dead loser

im sorry you feel like your way is the right way...but its not, everyone enjoys different things. just because you like it one way does not make it the best way. sorry you got your panties in a twist because others dont agree with you

Originally Posted by Deyth

Ooooh BURN! Damn I got burned. Wow. Hehe. That hurt. I'll be sore for a week. Accept my sincerest apologies, I would hate to see you any madder than this.

Originally Posted by Tbone70

ummmm ok whatever man

[Hemish]

What do you expect? The guy is so unoriginal that 69 other people beat him to the nickname Tbone.

[Deyth]

Originally Posted by Hemish

What do you expect? The guy is so unoriginal that 69 other people beat him to the nickname Tbone.

That's what I posted to the DnL forum but that Tbone dipshit called in the mod who's been hounding me about my sig and had him edit not only that post but some other previous ones where I made fun of him.

[Draive]

Its a matter of freedom. Does the development team give you the tools to make your own decisions, or do they try and limit your gameplay. I agree with Deyth's message but I'm not so sure that creating FvF over PvP is done because FvF is easier, I think they (DnL) are simply wanting to remain as mainstream as possible while still creating the illusion of an open gameplay sandbox.

For whatever reason, today's MMORPG.com "gamer" links in his little head that Free for All pvp = gankathon. They assume that a game with an FFA ruleset will mean they have to fight 24/7 instead of being able to only fight when its convenient for them.

What many of these new gamers dont realize is that by creating a factional system, the devs have automatically made half the server your enemy. Now there is no room for politics, they see you, you fight. True, you gain some "insta allies" but do you think just because someone is in the same realm as you, they are going to have your back? Your guildie on a FFA server would.

The majority of people who play MMOs today dont consider the logic behind this debate, its just their interpretation of some post they read by some guy who played Shadowbane for two weeks.

TBH, I think WoW will be the saving grace for the PvP community. That game is so fucking full of retards that people HAVE to be wanting to kill others in their own faction and will hopefully pick an FFA based game after they get bored.


-d

[Ubiytza]

Originally Posted by Draive

Its a matter of freedom. Does the development team give you the tools to make your own decisions, or do they try and limit your gameplay. I agree with Deyth's message but I'm not so sure that creating FvF over PvP is done because FvF is easier, I think they (DnL) are simply wanting to remain as mainstream as possible while still creating the illusion of an open gameplay sandbox.

For whatever reason, today's MMORPG.com "gamer" links in his little head that Free for All pvp = gankathon. They assume that a game with an FFA ruleset will mean they have to fight 24/7 instead of being able to only fight when its convenient for them.

What many of these new gamers dont realize is that by creating a factional system, the devs have automatically made half the server your enemy. Now there is no room for politics, they see you, you fight. True, you gain some "insta allies" but do you think just because someone is in the same realm as you, they are going to have your back? Your guildie on a FFA server would.

The majority of people who play MMOs today dont consider the logic behind this debate, its just their interpretation of some post they read by some guy who played Shadowbane for two weeks.

TBH, I think WoW will be the saving grace for the PvP community. That game is so fucking full of retards that people HAVE to be wanting to kill others in their own faction and will hopefully pick an FFA based game after they get bored.


-d

If anything, WoW has done more to backtrack MMORPG PvP and general maturity levels to the stone age. Watch as retards not yet even ready to step out of thier mothers basement invade every single mmorpg released post WoW with thier "OMG, AZEROTH IS SO MUCH COOLER" gameplay. Sure, they are usually easy to kill, can't hit end game fast enough and when they do, can't compete, but they bring the general IQ level of a community down by quiet a few points.

[Kagoth]

to be honest, in terms of pvp, shadowbane had probly the best system we saw so far.

Guilds were the player's protection, which provided and (forced) a sense of team that you rarely see in other games.

Its limiting however due to the fact that most players are utterly anti-social, even thou they are playing in a social friendly game such as a mmog. I mean honestly, if you want to solo and not interact with other people, why not stick to single player games?

Another good thing was the resource dispute. This allowed guilds to spread out into spheres of influence, which generated interesting political intrigue and a whole new batch of free ,player generated content, something developers love. Political fights in shadowbane were deep and complex, and mistakes costed dearly to all involved.

I've yet to see another game offer that.


As for ganking as a deterrent to mass sales, it all depends on the system.

If you force penalties upon a "gray kill", ie an imbalanced fight, people will not do it. Same can be applied to just mass rapes, by negating rewarding effects if there is a number imbalance in the fight.

To be honest, i've always been of the opinion that true, guild based pvp games, if they can succeed, it will always be a niche thing.

The majority of mmog players, are casual, they are lazy in terms of guild involvement, they want to login, kill a couple of mobs, get 1 level, and leave feeling like a heroe.

Then there is our kind, we want deep and complex systems, where tactics, dedication and teamwork, are the key to sucess, we want to compete with others that show the same apetites, and we want to kill people. We have the money to spend, who will cater our niche market?

[Deyth]

The threads in the beta and normal DnL forums got locked and they changed the TOS in both to address the issue they had with my signature. I expect in the next game FAQ update they will add a carebear stare.

[Deyth]

Originally Posted by kagoth

to be honest, in terms of pvp, shadowbane had probly the best system we saw so far.

Guilds were the player's protection, which provided and (forced) a sense of team that you rarely see in other games.

Its limiting however due to the fact that most players are utterly anti-social, even thou they are playing in a social friendly game such as a mmog. I mean honestly, if you want to solo and not interact with other people, why not stick to single player games?

Another good thing was the resource dispute. This allowed guilds to spread out into spheres of influence, which generated interesting political intrigue and a whole new batch of free ,player generated content, something developers love. Political fights in shadowbane were deep and complex, and mistakes costed dearly to all involved.

I've yet to see another game offer that.


As for ganking as a deterrent to mass sales, it all depends on the system.

If you force penalties upon a "gray kill", ie an imbalanced fight, people will not do it. Same can be applied to just mass rapes, by negating rewarding effects if there is a number imbalance in the fight.

To be honest, i've always been of the opinion that true, guild based pvp games, if they can succeed, it will always be a niche thing.

The majority of mmog players, are casual, they are lazy in terms of guild involvement, they want to login, kill a couple of mobs, get 1 level, and leave feeling like a heroe.

Then there is our kind, we want deep and complex systems, where tactics, dedication and teamwork, are the key to sucess, we want to compete with others that show the same apetites, and we want to kill people. We have the money to spend, who will cater our niche market?

Thing is, I don't think it's really a niche. It's perceived as a niche because no one has done it right and only a minority of idealists hold onto the dream. If a company were to release a truly balanced and self-regulating game then it would scoop a large chunk of the market.

[Xenogrant]

If it was possible to make a balanced, and self-regulating game do you think it wouldn't have been released by now? Even if the game is relatively balanced, one class will dominate another and the others will bitch and whine thus starting the cycle of nerfs, buffs and rollbacks. There will always be FOTMs and nerfs the month after. MMORPGs will always be filled with inequalities even if they're the slightest advantage, players will gravitate towards that class and devs will start the eternal balancing cycle, that just further FUBARs the game.

Unless a game is made with 3 classes, Mage, Fighter and Priest, where mage always kills fighter, fighter kills priest, and priest kills mage 10 times out of 10 there will always be inequalites. Introduce even 1 more class to the above equation, and the gray line of who kills whom will lead to nerfage of one and buffing of another class.